Yad Vashem
So for vacation, I made a religious "pilgrimage" of sorts to Israel. You can't really go to Israel and avoid Yad Vashem ("The Memorial of Names") or more literally, Jerusalem's spectacular Holocaust memorial. You walk through a long gray corridor and watch personal testimonials of Holocaust survivors and German soldiers. Although I'm a pretty emotional person myself, I don't cry unless I've got a good reason to cry, i.e. the Children's Memorial.
Visitors walk inside a cave where five candles are reflected millions of times over in a hall of mirrors to represent the souls of one and a half million children who died in the Holocaust. A voice states the name, age and birthplace of each dead child. This overwhelming sorrow consumed me, keeping me stationary in that one spot. Think about it. Among those kids, we may have found the cure for cancer, a great world leader or a loving parent.
Now I know that an event like the Holocaust draws a line between the theistic and atheists. I've heard both sides argued quite convincingly and it makes me wonder: how many modern atheists are so deeply affected by world traumas versus their own inner questioning? In my case, the Holocaust didn't confirm my belief in any sort of deity.
So my question is: How did the Holocaust (or other similar events such as the Rwandan Genocide or the Darfur Crisis) affect your view on theism?
posted by Anonymous @ Sunday, January 01, 2006
16 Comments:
How can a theist possibly justify his belief in a good god when the Holocaust happens ? That's doubly atrocious - because it justifies the Holocaust, and because it trivializes it. Those people should be more villified than Neo-Nazis.
Some idiotic extremists might say that the Haulocast was done to show Jews, homosexuals, and gypsies that their way was not the way of the Lord. Which is stupid. But lots of Neo-Nazis would say that.
The Haulocast didnt effect my views on theism. I never really related it to theism, because at the time I learned about it, I was too young to care beyond the fact that lots of people were killed and that was outrageous.
Genocides are things that don't affect my beliefs much. I do think that it is truly sad that so many people are dying for political/religious beliefs. It seems like people will find a reason to do anything these days.
But many Nazis risked their lives for the reasons Rohan mentioned.
Sorry about the gross misspelling. I never said that i thought they were killed for a cause. Some extremist or Neo-Nazi might think that that's why they were killed. They were murdered as you said.
all the genocides and nazis and stuff i think are all human fault, it doesnt affect my beliefs of god because if god intervened on human choice, humans wouldnt do anything for themselves and they wouldnt ever learn from past mistakes
Enil Edam,
I have a question:
Do you say the holocaust is bad because it’s bad?
Or
Is the holocaust bad because you say it’s bad?
But what makes it bad?
Seth, if you will volunteer for a little ... experiment ... I think I can show you why it's bad. I think I could suspend my empathy long enough for such an object lesson, and I promise not to kill you or do any permanent injury.
Seriously, what is done by one person to another against their will is a trespass. If I take your life, it is theft because I cannot return it, and you didn't give it to me. There is a reason that all civilized societies have a severe penalty for murder. Mass murder is no more wrong (although more horrible to contemplate) than a single murder, but it is no more right, and all the justifications in the world are really just lame excuses.
The problem with human culture all through history has been that it is exclusive, not inclusive.
God is a fantasy. That is not to say that a creator is absolutely impossible, but the human ideas of god in their myriad of flavors are all conjectural, bullshit, and superstition. The mix was originally formulated to remove power from the Alphas (the brutal) and give it to the shamans (the sneaks). The formula has been refined over the millennia, and as there was more to go around, more divisions were made in the pack to accommodate the different sects (scammers). As such, religion is a form of mental illness that has been selectively bred into the race to give the power-hungry a handle on individuals that they can then form into groups (power bases). Since that is my long view of religion, it is safe to say that I believe religion caused the holocaust, Nazism being a pseudo-religion that could not possibly flourish without the real thing and its residual effect on the Human race.
To answer your question, it does nothing to affect my view on theism, but it does support it.
Ah, I never thought about morals that way. Thanks.
And to prevent any confusion that may occur, I asked the above question purely for the purpose of discussion. I'm not that crazy.
You still did not answer my question. Is it the first, or the latter?
Yes, thank you for answering. I think the question is important. If the holocaust is bad because you say it is (whether framed by society or not), it is merely just your opinion. In other words, the holocaust is not objectively bad.
If there is no objective “bad” and it’s just product of society and upbringing, then what relevance does it have in affecting anyone’s view on theism?
The underlining message I detected in your post is used as a common objection to theism. It goes something like this:
1. If God exists, he is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent.
2. If God, is omniscient, he knows when any evil is occurring (or about to occur).
3. If God is omnibenevolent, he would want to prevent all evil.
4. If God is omnipotent, he could prevent all evil.
5. So, if God existed, there would be no evil. (1-4)
6. There is evil in the world.
7. Therefore, God cannot exist. (5,6)
Now, please correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I sensed you were pointing at in Yad Vashem. Or am I completely mistaken?
I am sorry, maybe it just me, but you lost me. BTW, I am not familiar with the post you mentioned. Do you have a link?
The post did not help. As far as I can tell, you are very, very confused…
Regardless, I don’t follow you, or the purpose of your post. Perhaps I am just not familiar with where you’re coming from.
theres an interesting passage in Angels and Demons relating to this argument. One of the Swiss Guard asks the Camarlengo if god truly is benevolent. He goes into a whole story about skateboards which i found interesting. There's a lot of cool stories out there which people use to prove that god does/doesn't exist, but in the end, all of us are entitled to our own opinions.
I like using different pseudonyms
Just like how Islamic terrorists are entitled to believe that killing infidels will send them to paradise?
Not true. They go to paradise by killing in a war that promotes the cause of islam. Jihad is a dying concept. Not because its underused. Because people are trying to interpret it such that it will always apply to them granting anyone paradise.
And people can have their own crazy opinions. Its their opinion to believe in Jihad.
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